Three View stuff.

[Mel Santmyers]

Hi folks. I will attempt to explain one last time here my reasoning for elimination of the three views. In place of three views I have designed a JUDGING STAND that is simple to contruct,on a circular base that will accomodate any angle desired, It is inexpensive to make. Again this stand allows viewing of the model in relation to the photos of the real subject at virtually any angle, Yes I know tops and bottoms may not be seen in "entitrey". Nothing is always perfect. However I do think enough enough can be seen to adequetly judge any model.
Three views have historically caused issues with judging for numerous reasons, Even some very good modelers and others fail to seem to understand this subject.  I agree IF we had good regular judges and IF we had this or that that things may be different, BUT! WE DO NOT. This subject has been tried several times and for some reason has rarely materialized.
Another item is newbies against veterans in the three view category. Can anyone even imagine how many people we have sent home never to return?
I noticed in a recent post by Mitch our hard working web site editor among other things where he mentions that a three view can be used to establish an outline. Well gentlemen an eraser and a copy machine can handle that very easy. This example alone should point out where I am coming from.
It has been mentioned that TWO photos would be the requirment for the newly proposed system. The real answer is it can be FOUR or SIX. Please dont discount the entire subject because one does not agree with one word. The important thing here is that something comes out of this that works.  The future is yours guys not mine or Chucks. Based on years of experience we think our ideas will help.    Mel

[Paul Fleming]

 I have been watching this three view debate for quite some time. First of all lets put things in perspective. This is a hobby. The idea for this organization is to build, present and fly the most accurate scale model you are capable of. If you think cheating to win is ok go somewhere else because that is not what we are about.
When you present your documentation the judge is only allowed to ask "Does it Match" and grade accordingly. It is a matter of integrity that the modeler will present undoctored  three view drawing and photographs.   
Eliminating the three view because it is easy to modify in favor of photographs is not the answer. In five minutes I can modify a picture to show a F6F-3 Hellcat armed with AIM9L Sidewinder or a Spad carrying two 500lb bombs.

If the basic problem is people are cheating to win lets do something about that rather than dance around the issue. It is possible to tighten up exactly how judging is conducted.

I would like to see the documentation "presentation quality" be a percentage of the overall score. I think it would result in more research and better three views and photographs rather than some of the poor quality stuff that is handed in now with no penalty.

Well that's my two cents worth.

Paul

[Mitchell Baker]

Good point Paul... I for one am against any rule or rule change put into place which is based on the assumption that people cheat...    It is my opinion and if someone can prove me wrong go ahead... that 99% of the contestants are NOT cheating.... If they are and someone has proof, then it is their fault for not bringing it to the attention of the CD and protesting forcing the builder to prove the 3-views... 

Now that is not to say that maybe there is to much weight on outline?  Many lower the weight of if?  Increase weight of something else? 

See-ya
Mitch

[Mel Santmyers]

Well sir here we go again. You two are the ones that mentoned cheating.  Please remember I simply said  [it could be done].  Next  I mentioned that there are numerous reasons for not using the 3 views. Three views as mentioned for another example are done by numerous individuals not always correct and not always the same in detail or quality. Not to mention once again that you can draw your own or have one drawn and get it approved. Thinlk hard about this guys don't pick out one word and run with it.
Over the years we have learned much about 3 views and marking them up with arrows notes etc for example can be very confusing.
Next I am well aware that a change such as this will not come easily. It may not even happen this time but I am convinced that some type of change will come to help [ALL] individuals with the dresire to compete in the Scale Masters.       Mel.

[Mitchell Baker]

Ok, then I missed what was said before.. I thought the reason was they could be changed to easy...  Guess that is not the point.  Ok, and if there are not pictures around?  All you have is artist rendition?  and one view?  At least, the ways the rules are know... If you have a model you want to do, and you can't find three views for the subject, you can modify them and submit them and the proper documentation for approval.  I am still trying to grasp exactly what problem that is trying to be solved.  Maybe I am just to tired right now... Maybe I just need a JD and coke... 

See-ya
Mitch

[Paul Fleming]

Mel,

I guess I missed your point too. Sorry, I just plain disagree with you.

BTW you are the one who mentioned an eraser and copy machine.

No hard feelings

Paul

[Mel Santmyers]

Hi Paul. Yes I did mention the eraser and a copy machine. However only to point out that they could be used to qualify a line if one chooses to use that direction. illegally of course.
You are correct in that you can have your opinion about these things.  I think over time you may see the 3 view issue differently.       Mel.         

[Mel Santmyers]

Hi Mich. You are at the Masters by now and hope you enjoy the weather as well because it looks ok. I will attempt to answer some questions from a previous post. [Only an artist rendition is available]  I covered that one early on in my proposal..  The Artist rendition showing colors can be presented in place of color photos.along with the black and white pictures. Example WW1 planes.
Next. Yes the rule book allows you to draw your own 3 view or you may have one drawn. What the rule book does not say is just when you are allowed to do this. Another words some three views may exist but you are not satified because you can make huge changes if necessary thereby helping the overall picture. AND  does the one approving this stuff really know.
Next. There are huge differences in the quality,detail etc. of various 3 views
Some are in color others are not. Some colors match to grab the judges attention others do not.
In spite of some judges experience they seem to focus on the 3 view as it is some kind of officisl document,even over that of a photo. Is it because it has been embedded in us and Veteran pilots know this full well.
I fully understand the difficulity of eliminating this 3 view subject after all it has been around for over 35 years. My goal is to even the playing field. Bring people back and yes I know about computers and photos as well. Much harder to do, Nothing is perfect                  Mel.

[Mitchell Baker]

In spite of some judges experience they seem to focus on the 3 view as it is some kind of official document,even over that of a photo.

So really it's more of a judges education thing...   because I have been looking and I can't find anything the requires 3-views for static judging.... I might have missed it... I am good at falling asleep while reading without many pictures involved hahaha...

and yes I know about computers and photos as well. Much harder to do, Nothing is perfect

Harder to do?  I would think scanning an pic in, using free software like GIMP to to change a photo would be easier then changing a 3-view.. or at least equal to...

See-ya
Mitch

P.S. and yes, the weather was great there... Some rain Thursday morning before static, but great after that...

[Mel Santmyers]

Hi Mitch. In part it is a judges education thing. As far as I know there is nothing that requires 3 views for static either. BUT! Seems to be relied on with many judges.   Lets say we put a paragraph in the rules that say ATTENTION 3 views are NOT to be used for judging purposes period or something to that effect. I thought about that a long time ago.
BUT! because of where we are in SM [FEW FLIYERS] to speak of I figured lets make it easier for folks to enter and not be hindered by the NUMEROUS but VARIABLE and UN AVAILABLE 3 views not to mention drawing your own. That is why I say do away with them at least as a judging tool. You are also well aware of the judges experience most areas have. BUT! Thank goodness we have them.
That is the reason for the NEW JUDGING STAND,it brings a whole new direction for the SM,  Just about anyone can be a judge. Look at the model then see the picture. We are simply not in a position at this time where we need rocket science.
I didnt want to mention it but the provisional rule may be used here??  I understand the nervous twitches some may have about changing a rule that is in place for 35 years. Even the 56 Chevy had to change for continued success. Mitch our world consists of numerous facets of our hobby many that do not require the talents required for SM BUT! they are there and we must compete.
My goal has been to bring 3 views to the attention of everyone involved. Not to cause dissent but to help bring the SM back for the future.The rest is up to the scale modelers and the SM leadership.  I think I have said enough now and wish everyone the best.    Mel