Advanced Class: Good Idea, Bad Implementation??

[paulsf86]

That may be what the rule says but it is really no different than a "team"  effort.  Maybe you have a very good flyer but does not know which end of an xacto knife to use.  He buys a 99 pt airplane and wins.  Is that really fair to the guy who maybe does not fly as well, goes to all of the effort to find a plane, build it and duplicate it to the best of his ability?  There are actually three levels of competition here, building, flying and the person who does both the building and flying of the aircraft.  Is it really fair that, in an individual event, the guy who does it all on his own has to compete with a team of specialists?

Paul S

[j_whitney]

It's called "Expert" class

[Mitchell Baker]

I understand what you are saying Chuck.  I'm just trying to figure out a way to work it out, without adding more classes and judging criteria. No, it's not the best solution.  There were two issues brought up which triggered the advanced class, one a place where expert pilots could fly something, while working on a long project (thus the inclusion of ARF/ARCs and a place for plan/scratch build planes, where the BOM could not be proven.  I do believe it says that the plane flown in Advance can't have placed in Expert or Team in a previous championships. How can we oversee that?  We can't. We have to rely on the integrity of the pilot for the most part. Same with the BoM. Same with authenticity of documentation.  I don't think sub-classes are an answer, AMA has this and it gets really hard to keep up with at times.  I see now why AMA makes the pilots keep with with their own points in the Scale contest system...

I think Jeff is going good in flushing out what we can do and propose in a timely manner. 

I was not trying to delay this Chuck.. Just making sure everything in on the table that I know of...

See-ya
Mitch

[Randy Warkentin]

It is what it is. Some of us treat it like a stepping stone to Expert class while others treat it as a Expert class that one doesn't have to build the plane, but can buy one ready to go. Modifying a ARF to look scale is still a skill in itself. I to don't agree that one can buy a 99 point plane and then compete in Advanced. This is Scale Masters which is supposed to be both at least partly building and or detailing a plane and should be implemented as such. If a Pilot does not want to build then that is what Team is for. In my eyes if the pilot did not build the plane or modify a ARF/ARC then he should not be able to go any higher than Open Class....Again only my opinion but I hope that this will be a change in the near future. Ok off the soap box!

[TushPilot]

Gentlemen:
Why not just follow Top Gun's Pro-Am class's Static judging rule:

For Pro-Am classes, the only documentation required is One Item that "Proves" the
Color Scheme existed on the full scale aircraft modeled. "Squadron Mates" are allowed,
meaning the Squadron designator, Id number or Tail Codes may differ from the proof
presented. The "Proof" may be the artwork from a plastic kit, an artist's rendition found in
a book or a photo of the actual full scale aircraft. For Proving the color scheme in Pro-Am,
25 Points is awarded as a Static Score. Zero points if the color scheme is not proven.
a. To receive the 25 static points, the First Round Flight Score Sheets need to be
signed off by wither the Chief Judge, The Chief of Static Judges or the Contest Director.

Top Gun has another class which accepts ARFs and is similar (rules only) to Scalemasters current
Advanced class.  It's called Unlimited class.

If one is really interested in Top Guns acceptance of ARFs, go to their web site:
http://www.franktiano.com/TopGun/TopGunRulebookRev2012.1.pdf

here's an excerpt from Top Gun Rules pertaining to Entry classes for ARF's

CLASSES: Top Gun will have a variety of classes to compete in. There will always be
an EXPERT class, one where the builder and pilot is the same person. There will be a
TEAM class, a category where there is a designated pilot and a builder and both are
allowed to perform work on the model.


ARF Models All Top Gun aircraft MUST be models that are considered "worthy"
of the Top Gun invitation. ARF models are eligible, but are limited to the Pro-Am and
Unlimited Classes only. They must represent a full scale color scheme.. An ARF model is
one that is defined as a pre-painted model, where most of the construction, AND the
finish, is completed at the Factory. NO Film Covered models, regardless of their quality,
are allowed.

The Unlimited Class will be static judged by the same rules as Masters, Expert
and Team, with ONE major exception. There is NO Builder of the Model Requirement! It
does not matter, we do not care, who or what firm, may have built the model. However,
we DO insist that an Unlimited entry consist of a team of a minimum of 3 people and a
maximum of 6, including a pilot, who must remain the same person throughout the event.
In the spirit of the class, All Team Members MUST dress in Team Colors, i.e., matching
clothing (Hats, Shirts, pants etc.) similar to a NASCAR Team. Unlimited is judged the same
day as Team Class.

It's interesting to note that of TG's 23 page rule book, 13 are devoted to maneuver descriptions.
I think our rule book is 56 pages with 14 devoted to maneuvers.  Hmmm.
/TP

[Mitchell Baker]

it is really interesting... One of the reasons Advanced was put in the way it was, was because we had competitors/members who requested/complained there was no venue to fly an estate-sale type plane.  Yes it is scale masters and suppose to show skill. We tried to compensate that with keeping advanced a non-qualifying event at the championships.. (only top 30% of Expert and Team qualify for the next years championships), and it is not eligible for Grand Champion.   Even though when it came out we had complaints about that as well.. "It's not fair" 

If you drop the documentation requirements in Advanced, are we now just making it a version of Open?  Yes, maybe some tweaking is in order, but minor.  It is never going to be 100% fair across the board. 

Top Gun just added Unlimited this past year. It's just a version of team, without BoM.  A few more restrictions apply as well...

Last, our "rule" book is a guide...  It also includes the complete Judges training guide and all forms needed for a pilot at an event. Not really the same thing.  The USSMA Guide also goes into more detail and is a little to wordy (IMHO) on some things. Not saying good or bad.. just does.

Not sure what the answer is...

--Mitch

[waconut]

 
Mitch, I quote you from your last post: "Last, our "rule" book is a guide..."

That's an Interesting assessment of the Scalemasters Competition Guide.

Let's see; the section labeled "Title" have words like "This Scale Masters Competition Guide is intended for use by contestants, static judges, flight judges, and contest directors at both Scale Masters Regional Qualifiers and the Scale Masters Championships. It outlines the ground rules, intent, and common definitions...Let's again see; we have: Section I General Rules and reading further I see "Shalls" Wills, Musts", etc. through out various sections of the Guide.  To list most of them (Sections);
STATIC JUDGING
FLIGHT JUDGING
LIST OF MANDATORY MANEUVERS
MECHANICAL OPTIONS
MANEUVER COMBINATIONS
OPTIONAL FLIGHT MANEUVERS
MISCELLANEOUS EVENT LOGISTICS, and continues until the last page of the Guide.
and yes, there are guidelines though out.

I guess then there are no rules, just winners and losers (a famous saying by a well known winner).

Smile, Mitch, I just enjoy conversing with you. Too many readers out there, not hardly enough repliers.
/chuck

[Mitchell Baker]

True Chuck...

Really I was just repeating what I was told about the "Guild" by a couple folks and a former NC. I should have clarified that fact.  I ask one time about something going on and mentioned that the "rules" say this... and I was corrected saying it's just a guide...  The CD has last final say...  Not that I agreed with the response... but hey, I'm just a lowly peon... I do what I'm told but folks higher on the food chain....   Love our discussions !!!! 

I'd be happy just scrapping it, using AMA rules and become a SIG....  (let's see if that brings them out of the woodwork!!!)

See-ya
Mitch

[j_whitney]

You cannot comparqule USSMA "rules" to Top Gun - apples and oranges.  The USSMA Guide is intended to be used by a large number of qualifiers across the country.  Top Gun is used at (drum roll please) Top Gun.  Frank is on hand to clarify any questions.  Not so at most Qualifiers.  In addition to all of the forms etc contained in the Guide that Mitch pointed out, there is an attempt to make it as objective and even-handed as possible.  Hence, you get a lot of words.

Having said all that, it took me a while to wrap my head around "maneuver combinations". 

[Michael]

I'd be happy just scrapping it, using AMA rules and become a SIG

I'm hoping you meant that tongue in cheek, Mitch.  I cannot possibly see how becoming an AMA Special Interest Group and scrapping the Guide is going to benefit the ScaleMasters program.  The whole reason it was created was to set up a separate entity, not bound by the r/c scale rules set up by the AMA, that was specifically designed for scale r/c modelers who wanted to try to do well flying in Qualifier contests around the country and then be invited to fly in a National Championship event with their qualified peers.  Using the AMA rules & format would turn our National Championship event into just another scale contest that any AMA member could enter.  Going the SIG route turns the entire rulemaking process over to the AMA scale contest board where any AMA member can propose rule changes to that SCB.  At least in our program, you have to be a Scale Masters member, we pre-supposes that you have some interest in and understanding of what we are doing, to propose a rule change.   I can't see any advantage to becoming a SIG or operating fully under the AMA scale program.

[bwboland]

Hmmm I like the activity! All good points. I think Frank Tiano did this with his Pro Am Class well. 2 division maybe with the hard core guys in one with the newbie's in the other?

Bernie

[Scale Dail]

I have been competing in Advanced class for a few years now. I very bashed an ARF, and have done fairly well with it. From the begining my greatest fear is that in Advanced class someone will buy an expert class aircraft as is, fly it well and walk away with the trophy. That has happend a few times now. It is a little discouraging to me putting so much work in my BARF when that happens. I wish that in the craftmanship catagory there could be a little more credit for hand crafted items rather than just points off for exposed control horns and scratches. I do plan to bring a kit built aircraft to Advanced class first because the competition is a little lower than Expert class. I do not want to be fodder for the BIG boys in Expert yet.
Other than these few things I think Advanced class is pretty good idea. 

[Flyfast1]

Greetings,

I am a new member of this forum and plan to participate for the first time in Scale Masters in 2013.  I am an experienced pilot, but am building my first plane by myself, a 1/5 scale Supermarine Spitfire Mk. XIV.  I am in the finishing stage and should soon be ready for paint.  For the last several years I have been flying at warbird events in Northern California and have always enjoyed the company of the scale masters pilots who flew that those events, so I decided I would join Scale Masters.  I look forward to the experience!

Regarding the topic of this thread, from the perspective of a new participant, I thought it might be interesting to point out that, unless I misunderstand the 2011 Competition Guide, if I want to compete with other individual builder/pilots, my only option is the Expert Class.  I expected that there would be a beginner or lower class other than Expert for less experienced builder/pilots.  My understanding is that the only other options for an individual builder/pilot are Advanced and Open, but neither requires that the pilot build the plane and Open does not have the same static judging as Advanced or Expert.  While I can see the benefits of having an entry level class where anything can be flown to foster participation, i.e., the Open Class, it would be nice to have a class lower than Expert for individual builders/pilots.

Cheers,

Ed B.  

[j_whitney]

We are discussing this very issue right now Ed - hope to have a resolution soon.
Your assesment is correct, - in AMA there is such a class, used to be called Sportsman, I don't remember what it is called now, but neither USSMA nor Top Gun has an in-between class that is a step into Expert..

For the nonce, you should enter Expert.

BTW - after you finish the airplane but before you glass it, see if you can hook up with a USSMA Static judge or a buddy yoiu truse and have him go over the outline with you, make any corrections to his satisfaction.  Then start the finishing process.  Easier to fix things at that stage than to have to cut into painted areas.

[Jeffrey Pike]

I have been flying in scale competitions since 1979. I have seen the rise and fall of scalemasters. We got old and died.
My suggestions -
Regionals - Expert I, Expert II (newbee), Team (as is), Advanced (catch all with limited static), Open (newbee with no static). All qualifiers have all classes.
National -  Expert, Team, Advanced, Open

At the regionals the newbee BOM can compete against his peers in the Expert II class. Advanced is the "place to fly" with a level playing field for ARFs vs Estate models. Open is for the rank beginner whether BOM or ARF.

The two Expert classes at the regionals will be combined for the purpose of numbers to qualify for the nationals.

When using "fun fly" as the "Open" event at regionals, do not count the "experts" who fly these events when determining those who qualify. A simply check the box on the entry form will help this work.