Advanced Class: Good Idea, Bad Implementation??

[waconut]

Time to start another discussion on bringing USSMA into the 21st century, so; here I go with a discussion of:
Advanced Class: An oxy-moron – that which is made up of contradictory or incongruous elements.

Other definitions of the current Advanced Class would be of interest to see.  Rsvp anyone?

Anyway, on with my discussion of my assessment of the current state of the Advanced Class and maybe have the new USSMA officers take another look at this competitive (sic) class.  I also hope that others will offer their opinions, ideas and/or suggestions.

Discussion:  I was of the opinion that the new Advanced Class of USSMA competition was to:
1.   Provide a competition Class for new and experienced pilots and that aircraft entered are not governed by the BOM (Builder of Model) rule.
2.   Provide for aircraft that are classified as factory built scale aircraft, including ARFs and ARCs.

The current rules for the Advanced Class are written such that:
1.   Any (except a pilot who is also competing in Expert Class) pilot can enter this class with any scale model airplane, be it a scratch built, built
               from plans or a kit scale model.
2.   Judging criteria for both flying and static are identical to Expert and Team Scale.

Now, here is where I see an incongruity – with the above rules (and others), there is no way that an ARF/ARC/etc. can compete with a scratch, plan or kit built scale model, especially in Static.  How does one compete against non-ARFs/ARCs/etc in static?  Not under the same rules as Expert/Team undergo, that's for sure.

(Flight judging appears to be a level playing field as pilots in this category are expected to be knowledgeable and capable of performing scale maneuvers.)

I would suggest that either the Advanced Static criteria be changed to reflect a more realistic assessment of the modeled aircraft and/or that Static scoring be modified to reflect the new criteria.  Secondly, allow only "factory built" scale models to compete in this class.  This may be an additional exclusion definition to the BOM rule, but in no way should it allow for Expert/ Team scale models to compete head-to-head, be they new or oldies.

In considering the above, I also suggest that the Advanced Class Static criteria be changed as follows:

"The only documentation required is One Item that "Proves" the Color Scheme existed on the particular full scale aircraft modeled. "Squadron Mates" are allowed, meaning the Squadron designator, Id number or Tail Codes may differ from the proof presented. The "Proof" may be the artwork from a plastic kit, an artist's rendition found in a book or a photo of the actual full scale aircraft. For Proving the color scheme in Advanced Class, 25 Points is awarded as a Static Score. Zero points if the color scheme is not proven."   (Thanks, Top Gun).

I further suggest that one look closely at the results of the Advanced Class competition from the 2011 USSMA Championships and tell me how fair that competition was. The bottom line and my conclusion is that a Factory built scale model can not compete nor win when pitted against a non-factory built scale model.

For the Newbie (or any one else for that matter), he/she doesn't stand a chance with an ARF.  And then, we ask them to spend in many cases, 500 to a Thousand bucks to attend the Championships.

In summary, the USSMA Advanced Class could/should be modified along the following guidelines to provide for a more fair and competitive environment, along side Expert and Team Classes.
o   Advanced Class limited to "ARFs"
o   Flight scores remaining the same as Expert/Team
o   A 25 pt Static scoring thing, limited to color only documented proof (No 3-views).
/chuck
   

[stuntflyr]

Interesting points. I'm new to this and have no answers.
I will comment that I am a builder and have flown C/L Scale so came to R/C with the express interest of flying R/C Scale. I was really surprised and a bit dismayed that Stand Off or Sport Scale, was no longer used and the only BOM Scale (besides Team) is Expert. That is the only class in which I'm interested in competing unless it's a home base contest.
Thanks,
Chris...

[jeaton01]

Wouldn't what you are proposing force people into the expert class because they went to the effort to build their own model, that wouldn't be a good change would it?  There is nothing stopping someone with a factory built model from either changing his model to be more scale to compete, or buying one that is very good to begin with.  As time goes by that seems to get more and more possible.

Since I'm new here, I'll say that I have been a flight judge at many USSMA events and once in a while a scale judge. 

[waconut]

I don't see where I am proposing to force people into the expert class because they went to the effort to build their own model.  The Expert class is for a builder/-pilot; i.e., the BOM rule is enforced for this class (as it is for Team), so why don't they enter in the Expert class.
If you think USSMA needs two Expert classes, one for the BOM pilot and the other for the non-BOM pilot (a BOM model is also eligible to compete in the Advanced class), well then, Okie Dokie.  If you are of the opinion that an ARF, bashed till the cows come home, can compete (like win) against a scratch or built from plans model, well, then again, I say, Okie Dokie.
My concern is not for the Skilled builder, but for those pilots with good flying skills but are not scale builders, or/and are new to USSMA competitions. So, ARFs are their airplanes, or even someone else's model.
So, if ARFs are not wanted in Scale Masters, so be it.  I just think that there is a place for ARFS in Scale Masters, but competing in a fair environment (ala Top Gun's Pro-Am class).  If interested, here are some excerpts from Top Gun's rule book for 2011:
1.   The Pro-Am and Unlimited Classes are exempt from the Builder of the Model rule.
2.   ARF Models:   All Top Gun aircraft MUST be models that are considered "worthy" of the Top Gun invitation. ARF models are eligible, but are limited to the Pro-Am and Unlimited Classes only. They must represent a full scale color scheme.. An ARF model is one that is defined as a pre-painted model, where most of the construction, AND the finish, is completed at the Factory. NO Film Covered models, regardless of their quality, are allowed. For Pro-Am classes, the only documentation required is One Item that "Proves" the Color Scheme existed on the particular full scale aircraft modeled....."
Note that Top Gun implemented a totally new Static judginging criteria for the Pro-Am class.  I personaly think that some form of Craftsmanship judging be also conducted, The reason being to award "bashing".

I personally do not encourage new pilots to USSMA competitions to enter in the Advanced class, but rather, do the Open route (assuming the Qualifier has allowed for one).  For my up-coming Scale Masters workshop, I will also point out to the "Advanced class newbie's" what they are going to be competing with – BOM's (even non-BOM's but scratch built by another builder).  Some I've seen with Static scores of over 97.  My bashed ARF scores 90-91 or so and I will tell you, the level of bashing I did took a lot of time in order to survive/meet the Expert Static criteria that the Advanced class uses.. Just look at the 2011 Championship Advanced class results. Guess what pilot won with what model.

Believe me, I really enjoy building, bashing, etc. it's just I think that Scale Masters just won't let go of the past and is unwilling to recognize the changed modeling world of th21st century.

Competition is Fun, and so is Building (Wacos, especially).  and so are good dialogs, this I think being one of those.
/chuck

[waconut]

Seems that comments that I have been receiving (emails in particular) favor the current Advanced rules.  Consensus being that the Advanced class is not for ARFs and "newbies", but is a playground for old/new BOMs, non-BOMs and expert pilots.  Okie Dokie, so be it.
There is still Open for the new kids on the block, regardless of skill level in either/both piloting and building. Two Expert classes work for me too.  As a Team builder, I now have the opportunity, together with my pilot (or another one) to enter 2 airplanes, one in Team and one in Advanced.  Fun and games and an opportunity to dry run a new airplane or a bashed ARF (fun to do and somewhat challenging to bash a factory built model) works for me and also helps the numbers for the contests.  Team pilots also like the Advanced rule; they too can fly another airplane at a contest.  Twice the challenge, twice the fun.  Maybe some day, Expert entrants can do this also; that is, compete in Advanced.  Do I see one competition class in the future? Naw....There will always be a BOM rule.
/chuck
 

[Mel Santmyers]

I am for Chucks proposal. That is except the 30% thing where I have explained the reasons for in the past recent posts. Now! If someone wants to compete while they build their next master piece. Then they can build an ARF in a week or two. We need to keep on remembering that the world is going or has gone to ARF's. We do not need to cater to the few that have something else.. What we need is MEMBERS. For many reasons. Remember! less than 100 after 35 years  Having said that I will say that somehow we need to FLOWER UP THE BUILDERS so that the assemblers might say . Hey!
I can do that. So what ever we call it. lets go and do where the numbers are.   PLEASE you guys that do not like what Chuck has proposed Think of the organization. The world has changed. The Scale Masters is made up of many qualifiers and many ARF'S lurk in those events. If you want to HELP then think what can be done to make the BUILDERS the ones that the ARF people want to join over time.         Mel.

[Mitchell Baker]

So Mel, those that purchase nice built models from an estate clean it up.. can't compete with it...  Or a friend and I work on a project together... something happens to friend/builder  I can't compete with that model.  Advance was designed as a catch-all for any type project. As I said, we talked about ARF's being competitive in this class and they are at a disadvantage. But is was also to encourage building a project and the allow those into a long term project a place to fly.  Nothing is going to be perfect.  Remember USSMA did have other Expert classes...  Designer class.. but there was no one participating...  If we start getting the interest.  Decline in numbers is not just USSMA, it's across the board.  We just see it more starting as a smaller group.  I would love to have to have as many classes as AMA does (not really, they have WAY to many.. and CD devised sub-classes) but have to break down in expert some way.  Sure, you are going to have the trophy hogs who will enter into a lower class just for the chance of a better placement.  But that is going to happen no matter what. And the best approach to those types is peer pressure.  Works the best... 

Lastly, We wanted Advanced to also be a step into Expert/Team.. that was the reason for the same as expert judging. 

Just my thoughts...

See-ya
--Mitch

[Mel Santmyers]

Thats how I feel Mitch. After looking at all the reasons you mention. ARF'S are going to be the majority of planes in fun flys or other events no matter how we slice it.  I just saw a huge ARF JET ready to fly for 6000 bucks. Of course many many others are far less.
]You are correct nothing is perfect but the numbers will be ARF'S The items you mention [A catch all] do not begin to meet the numbers of ARFs being sold. We just need to be smart enough to get a percentage in our events. A good start might be to change the name [Scale Masters] as mentioned in another post. Don'tpanic. Not to do without it just position it differently.
So! make that project you and your friend will do an ARF.
As for Classes. I have always said the FEWER the better.
Numbers decreasing? I am unsure at this time however the Jet world numbers are pretty good.then as I mentioned before there are many more RC avenues so WE must compete to gain flyers. BUT! This is where ideas are needed. A mission should be to somehow make these ARF guys into experts and team flyers and builders
I have also always agreed that advance is a stepping stone into expert and team.
It seems we are giving the troops more stuff to chew on Mitch.. Thanks.     Merry Xmas .        Mel.

[waconut]

MEL,
i HAVEN'T THE FOGGIEST AS TO UNDERSTANDING WHAT YOU ARE SAYING.
Are you agreeing with Mitch when hr says" Advance was designed as a catch-all for any type project. As I said, we talked about ARF's being competitive in this class and they are at a disadvantage. But is was also to encourage building a project and the allow those into a long term project a place to fly.
And his other comment: "We wanted Advanced to also be a step into Expert/Team.. that was the reason for the same as expert judging".
Do you know who is "WE"?
And then there is Mitch's further comment: "those that purchase nice built models from an estate clean it up.. can't compete with it...  Or a friend and I work on a project together... something happens to friend/builder  I can't compete with that model.".  Why not?  Anyway, I'm not aware of Mitch competing in Advanced class, but I don't have a listing of all Qualifier contestants, so I no doubt missed his name.
And then we have this beauty of a justification statement: " Advance was designed as a catch-all . As I said, we talked about ARF's being competitive in this class and they are at a disadvantage.  But is was also to encourage building a project and the allow those into a long term project a place to fly".  whatever .... okie dokie.
So, what I am hearing/reading is that Advanced class is a catch-all class for any type project, and allow those involved in a long term project a place to fly.  No wonder I advise newbies to compete in Open class.  Why would someone new want to compete against  long term project builders who I guess have another plane that they can fly in Advanced while they complete their "project"....,especially those with Arfs/Barfs/Arcs/Barcs/e.al.
Maybe I should change my suggetion to Rename Advanced Class to Catch-All.; 
Obviously, I haven't learned yet that to suggest any change to the  USSMA  office holders is met with, not critiques, but justification for why things are what they are.
/smuck
/chuck

[waconut]

To Mel, Mitch, and all others reading this forum topic:
I really am not being facetious with my comments.   It's just the way I "talk".  But I really do have a problem understanding a comment of justification as was stated previously.  ".... but it (Advanced class) was also to encourage building a project and the allow those into a long term project a place to fly."    I really thought that Scale Masters was an organization in which one can compete against his peers, determined by competitive classes (Expert/Team...) and not a "place to fly".  A "place to fly" to me means a reason to join a local club and enjoy flying, not a reason to enter competitive events.
So, hopefully, not having bristled too many feathers, I sign off again with a smile and extending my best wishes to all for a Merry Christmas and a New Year filled with your wishes.
/chuck

[Mel Santmyers]

Chuck.   I think you misunderstand. I thought  I was very clear. However what I was saying to Mitch is that rhe catch all thing does not even come close to the number of ARF'S that are or will be available to compete.     NEXT.   What I mean is to have 
[all]   ARF'S   [ONLY]  in advance and that is what I said maybe it was in different words but that is what I said and that is what I think.    NEXT.  I also said that advance should be a stepping stone into expert. I did not say a thing about flying or static I simply said it should be a stepping stone.
I also said the fewer the classes the better. There I mean do away with open,fun scale etc. at least in the scale masters book. Leaving the rest up to the individual clubs. The next thing will be a taxi event    What I mean again is to sell,advertise,train such as your February event,What prado did at their event etc. I in fact would like to see us with  [three events only.]
1. EXPERT 2. TEAM  3. ADVANCE    [NOW] When JETS begin to show up in numbers something will need to be done there and the time to think about it is between now and soon...
AND  As I said previously This what I think period.    Not a suggestion in writing.    Just what I think will help the Masters get on fast track for the future.                                          Merry Xmas         Mel.

[waconut]

Mel, Thanks for the clarification.  And you now made your opinions clear.
We ARE on the same page.  I thought so, but I had some difficulty reading that in your reply to Mitch.
Good things come in threes, I've been told: Expert/Team and Advanced might just fit into that idiom.
Mellowing a bit, The Advanced class (my proposal)could be opened up abit to accept "non-arfs", but Static needs to undergo a major change, say along the lines I suggested.  Could be the way to level the playing field and provide for a great new Peer Competion Class, namely, Advanced (hehehe).
And a Merry Christmas back atcha........../chuck

[Gary Norton]

So, let's make this simple.  Advance Class was meant to be a next step to Expert or Team (among other things) and allows any scale man-carrying aircraft.  If this is unfair to the ARF/ARC competitor then add an Advanced-ARF/ARC only Class and remove those type of aircraft from the current Advanced Class.  Wouldn't that help level the playing field.  Scale Masters goal is still to reward the best "builders" and flyers.  For ARF/ARC models, it is mainly a flying competition so who needs static anyhow?

Gary

[Mel Santmyers]

Hello Gary. Happy holidays.   I am all for the KIS system.   I think you and other guys are offering some good suggestions for our leaders to "quickly consider". Your idea to make two advance classes is good    or   [remake] or [rewrite]  the open class for the old scale or garage sale specials as Mitch says. There is no doubt that the Scale Masters needs to go under some changes for the future and I would like to see changes take place in 2012.
What do the rest of you guys think???    Act fast!         Tell your leaders.
.                                                                                                                         Thats next week by the way.                           Mel.     

[Curtis Kitteringham]

Hello all, with the Open class growing as it is (this is good) now we are getting more modelers moving up from Open Class too Advanced Class. Yes a big part of them are flying Arf's some have major to minor changes to the model. What I have seen is that most that are going into Advanced Class are not taking the Open Class model with them. I have been told kits are on the table to very modified ARF models are planed. With this in hand I think maybe the Advanced class is open for some changes, I did very well with a BARF at Fresno, if I had better luck with the model I would of giving a better show of my self. So I do not think we should dumb down the Advanced Class but add a class were the Open Class ARF model (if that's all that person/person's) what to fly, to move to from Open. Call it what you want but make static worth more points, flying is no change in score. Leave Advanced Class as is for all of the kits, payed for, models from pass contest's(Expert/Team) and those that have really BARFed their ARF. This next steep from Open can be a landing spot for the modeler and a place they can move on up or stay. Now this will add to the cost of a contest and as for the Champs it will add to the Sponsorship sells (which is a good thing).   
Curtis K.           

[Mitchell Baker]

Since we have already flown the first qualifier of the 2012 season, would these be fore 2013 season?  --Mitch

[waconut]

That has been used in the past to keep changes from happen, so what's new. Zippo, that's what's new; especially when it comes to USSMA mgmt.
/chuck

[j_whitney]

Oh I don't know about that Chuck - who submitted the proposal and when?

[waconut]

ME.......  who else.

[waconut]

Jeff, I over reacted to Mitch's question as to the timing of proposal consideration and implementation.
What I was referring to was a "delay" on one of my rule change proposals I think it was 2008-9; and then never receiving any feedback as to any disposition.
My "Zippo" comment was inappropriate and unnecessary.  Any further information about my previous experience would involve names, and I won't go there.
So, is Mitch correct in assuming that: "Since we have already flown the first qualifier of the 2012 season, would these be fore 2013 season?"
/chuck

[j_whitney]

My own take on it would be yes - since it would be unfair to those that have flown already and may have flown by the time this gets resolved.

[waconut]

Since the  Corvin Miller Memorial Qualifier almost (?) always is conducted mid November (the next one-Gunsmoke is usually 1st week in March),when is a good time (submittal window) to submit rule change proposals such that approval/disapproval wouldn't take over 1 year for disposition?
i.e., would occur in the contest year of submittal.
I gather then that the Advanced class rules (as well as Open) will not see any changes this contest year (2012) and will have to be appoved before mid-October 2012 to see any changes that would be applied to the 2013 season.
/chuck

[waconut]

In reading the flyer for the Corvin Miller Memorial 2012 qualifier, one might notice that no Advanced class was to be conducted.
It seems that Gunsmoke (early march 2012) will be the first qualifier to conduct an Advanced class.

Corvin Miller Memorial
Start Date: 11/19/11 End Date: 11/20/11
Hosted By: Sarasota R/C Squadron in Sarasota, FL USA
Contact Info:
Contest Director: Mike Winter CD AMA # 3178
CD contact e-mail mikeandeva@comcast.net
CD Contact Phone # 941-966-7786
Web Link for more information www.sarasotarc.com
USSMA Classes:
Expert Yes   Team Yes
Advanced No  Open Y
Fun Scale Yes
/chuck

[paulsf86]

Ok, so here is another question, what is the difference between an ARF and an airplane that someone buys for the weekend to compete?  The entrant has put little or no work into either as a builder and then the event is only  a flying event.  Shouldn't the entrant that builds a model or modifies an ARF compete with others that have done the same.  I would say that an airplane purchased for the weekend that was built by someone else should be entered in the team category and not Advanced.

Paul S

[j_whitney]

Except that the team rules state that the builder must be present.   You can get a one-time dispensation for the death of the builder, but that's it.  And no, you Grandma cannot die more than once . . .